Loot systeem : EPGP

Slaybeard wrote:Second of all for the moment i do not have the time to raid. but i do understand his point. You can join up for 10 raids and wipe every time end then 1 raid you cant join up but the boss goes down according to previous rules you're 10 times were worth nothing.

Well you know, I'm in that case and the drop was even tank plate. So I'd have every reason to complain.

And I wasn't saying that people had nothing to say, but that people actively raiding (and that's around 12 people) should have more to say on a matter that concern them more.

Spanks wrote:

Slaybeard wrote:Second of all for the moment i do not have the time to raid. but i do understand his point. You can join up for 10 raids and wipe every time end then 1 raid you cant join up but the boss goes down according to previous rules you're 10 times were worth nothing.

Well you know, I'm in that case and the drop was even tank plate. So I'd have every reason to complain.

And I wasn't saying that people had nothing to say, but that people actively raiding (and that's around 12 people) should have more to say on a matter that concern them more.

Tomato tomaato...

They shouldnt have more to say on the matter...
it is the same as saying they nothing to say...

It is noble that you dont complain still doesnt matter for others.
I never complained about it, but asked the question once and was ok with it.

But some do complain. And they have the right to do so as well as others not raiding.
Every system has his flaws. And there is a thread about improving the system.
And i guess we need everyones input. (Raiding and not raiding)

I agree that people actually raiding should have a higher vote on these matters than those that do not raid (so far at least). Raiders have a better view on these things as they've experienced the effects of the system firsthand.

See it like this: You are a brewer and you've been making ale for several years now. Then a person with an interest in brewing comes along and makes remarks about your latest brew. While you may listen to his opinion, it's not as valuable as that of yourself and other equally experienced brewers.

Grudgebeard wrote:I agree that people actually raiding should have a higher vote on these matters than those that do not raid (so far at least). Raiders have a better view on these things as they've experienced the effects of the system firsthand.

See it like this: You are a brewer and you've been making ale for several years now. Then a person with an interest in brewing comes along and makes remarks about your latest brew. While you may listen to his opinion, it's not as valuable as that of yourself and other equally experienced brewers.

Well i do not.

But I grow tired of meaningless discussions so its closed for me.

Second of all all those experienced brewers may like the ale but if it doesnt sell
it has no point on brewing it and that depends on the customers, that dont know anything about brewing, that will or will not drink it.

well this is weird i have raided for 6 years and never have i seen such a discussion about a loot system...
it's not like we have shitloads of raiders to deal with...
tbh a system is only as complicated as you make it. the more complex you make it the more trouble it will give you.
15 people sign up for a raid. 10 have to get chosen to raid. Classes can easely set up rotations of their own by just talking to eachother.
And points distribution can go so much easier. you sign up you get points you stay as backup for as long as the raid goes on you will get points even if you're not selected to raid. you leave earlier then points you recieve will be reduced.
A person thats raids alot will recieve alot of points. a person that doesn't won't get alot of points. so loot sorts itself out.
a person that only occasionally signs up maybe once every 2 weeks of even less. Should hardly be entitled to accuire a raidposition unless there is noone else to fill it.
a simple guild ranking system can get into place here. steady raiders given a title as "raider" (just saying something) someone that does not raid enough will get a demote (such an awfull word) to casual raider. rules should be strict, officers should have no prio in raids aswell. (I was even suprised i was picked to raid yesterday.) This way its easy for the officers to pick their people.

Let me say that this is MY vision of things. I'm not gonna go against grudge or anything else he's the leader and i respect his choice in the EPGP system. hell i don't even care about my EPGP. i raid and when loot drops that i need i just need. if i don't win i won't go emo on your ass.(Unless being an emo should be appropriate!!)

Incy out.

You make it seem so simple, but it really isn't I'm afraid. The 'who gets selected' system is pretty much good as it is now. So no problems there. But the point system would never work as you propose it. Imagine having to keep track of all people who remain available and at what time they do or do not sign out? I for one have enough to do as it is, just by calculating all data in the current system. I'm even thinking strongly about writing an application, especially for managing all that data. I consider adding a feature where people get rewarded for killing a boss for the first time in a guild, but the reward is calculated on the total time each person invested and the total time it took to take the boss down.

Basically it all boils down to this: It takes a shitload of time to manage all these things. It's something I gladly do for the guild, and something I see as my task, being guildleader and all. But I will not change the system, simply based each whim a single person (be that active raider or no) might have. Don't get me wrong, I value everyone's opinion, but that doesn't mean I will act upon it every time.

Greetz,
Grudge

Grudgebeard wrote:I consider adding a feature where people get rewarded for killing a boss for the first time in a guild, but the reward is calculated on the total time each person invested and the total time it took to take the boss down.

Wouldn't that be achieved by increasing the EP for attempting a boss that we never killed before (instead of increasing the EP for killing that boss as it was before). Granted, the "reward" would be given before the boss is actually killed instead of retroactively, but in the end it wouldn't change much I believe.

It has to be done retroactively, because you have no idea how many tries it will take before the boss goes down, and what a character's share will be in those tries.

I see, so you want the total amount of EP given out to remain the same independently from the amount of time spent on downing the boss.

Something like this:

Rav = reward for downing the boss for the first time, on average per player
T = total time spent for killing the boss
Tp = total time spent for killing the boss by a specific player
Rp = reward for that specific player

Rp = (Tp/T)*Rav

That way we address the concerns that have been raised about the old system, but still maintain an incentive for attempting new bosses.

Grudgebeard wrote:I'm even thinking strongly about writing an application, especially for managing all that data.

That will soon become a necessity in order to retain your sanity

Exactly like that! ^^

The app is underway, but at a pace combineable with playing wow and painting warhammer. Oh, and the wife!

Now I know what you're doing when you look so busy in the office...

Grudgebeard wrote:You make it seem so simple, but it really isn't I'm afraid. The 'who gets selected' system is pretty much good as it is now. So no problems there. But the point system would never work as you propose it. Imagine having to keep track of all people who remain available and at what time they do or do not sign out? I for one have enough to do as it is, just by calculating all data in the current system. I'm even thinking strongly about writing an application, especially for managing all that data. I consider adding a feature where people get rewarded for killing a boss for the first time in a guild, but the reward is calculated on the total time each person invested and the total time it took to take the boss down.

Basically it all boils down to this: It takes a shitload of time to manage all these things. It's something I gladly do for the guild, and something I see as my task, being guildleader and all. But I will not change the system, simply based each whim a single person (be that active raider or no) might have. Don't get me wrong, I value everyone's opinion, but that doesn't mean I will act upon it every time.

Greetz,
Grudge

well i'm not sugesting you should change anything cause i don't care about the epgp system i roll on every item that i could possibly use(i'm a lootwhore) and wether or not i get it is out of the question :p
it just seems such a complicated system. as for my old guild (ya i'm saying that alot) they managed with a much simpler system and had to keep track of over 50 people instead of 10 and they also had 1 max. 2 players dealing with the system.
anyway if you like doing things this way i won't blame you your used to it and will manage it fine, no doubt.